Royal Commission report day 45 page 17
The Royal Commission evidence for 10/8/1881
(see also introduction to day 45)
[[../../people/peD_G/gravesMLA.html|The Honorable J. H. Graves, M.L.A.,]] giving evidence
15556 By the Commission to the Witness— Evidently Perkins is not afraid; in his letter he says he is ready to attend?— If the Commission could go there, they could see the hut and the traces I have mentioned, showing that the Kellys must have been there a considerable time before the murders. I think it was a very serious error not following them down after the murders.
15557 Do you think for the purposes of this enquiry it will be necessary to go to Mansfield ,?— I am positive if you go there you will get most material evidence as to how those men were supported, but I cannot say whether they will give you the information; they can give you astonishing information if they think fit. I would like, before going, to express the opinion than the plan now adopted of patrols, and making the men individually acquainted with the district is one of the wisest that the Commission could have sanctioned, because I do not care how plucky or efficient the men are, unless they know the district they are utterly useless. Within the last three or four months the police up there have become acquainted with the localities, and if any offence is committed they can go to likely points and find out the offenders' whereabouts which they did not know before till the progress report of the Commission was given effect to.
15558 You have had a very large amount of information connected with the Kelly business all through, and are thoroughly seized of the question that has been remitted to this Commission, and I wish to ask you—do you think it is necessary for us to visit the scene of the murders at Mansfield before sending in a progress report dealing with the three officers of police who have been for some time relieved from duty in order to be before the Commission. I do not refer to our general report?— I would not like to say that those officers were responsible in regard to what happened at Mansfield . I do not think Messrs. Nicolson , Hare, and Sadleir were accountable for that, because the offence was not committed in their district. Mr. Sadleir was not in charge of any portion of the district where those men were. I think it was not till about the time that Kennedy went out that Mr. Sadleir took charge.
15559 As far as you know, Mr. Nicolson also was not at all responsible as to that?— Yes, I think, under the regulations, that Mr. Nicolson was responsible to a certain amount. I think that one of the charges is that the men were inefficiently armed, and I think your enquiry will show that was so, and the duties of the Inspecting Superintendent ( Mr. Nicolson 's office) are very clearly laid down. This, how ever, is only matter of opinion.
15560 So you think that, incidentally, Mr. Nicolson may have been responsible?— I do not think he was responsible for the men remaining at large, but the Inspecting Superintendent's duties seem to me to be the most important of all. I think the district got disorganized under the charge of Messrs. Barkly, Reid, and Brook Smith, and, when Mr. Sadleir took it, it was in a very disorganized state. I think that Mr. Nicolson , as Inspecting Superintendent, is responsible, to a great extent, for that occurring in any district; but the Commission can judge of that.
15561 As to Mr. Hare, how far is his responsibility affected in the matter—I am confining the question solely to those men being at large prior to the murders at the Wombat?— I think the officer in charge of Wangaratta was responsible. It cannot possibly affect Mr. Hare , because he went afterwards, virtually to supersede Mr. Sadleir , and could not, therefore, be responsible. It could not directly relate to Mr. Nicolson ; if he was not allowed to have the proper number of men there, the number being reduced, he cannot be held responsible, and Captain Standish must be. But if it was done with his knowledge and sanction, that is another matter. As to Mr. Sadleir , the only thing he could be held accountable for would be if he had the knowledge that those men, charged with attempting to shoot, were within his Mansfield district at the Wombat prior to the murders. They must have been in his district, with warrants out against them, from the time of the attempt to shoot Fitzpatrick till the murders in October; and Mansfield was part of Mr. Sadleir 's district, and was amalgamated with Benalla about October. I do not think you would get any information in Mansfield that would either free those gentlemen from blame or attach blame to them—you might; I cannot say. I am sworn, and am endeavoring to tell the truth honestly, and I do not think you would get much evidence there. I think Inspector Pewtress was in charge of the district then. I think it was a grievous mistake that police were not at once sent in sufficient numbers after the murders, because immediate pursuit is the main point in dealing with criminals.
15562 By Mr. Sadleir— You said I was superseded by Mr. Nicolson—how do you mean that?— Perhaps that was an unguarded opinion, but I hold that an officer is, according to the regulations, fit to take charge or he is not. If he is, he should not be called upon to divide his responsibility with any other individual.
15563 Did I not still retain charge of the ordinary duty of the district after those officers were sent?— I could not say you did.
15564 Do not you remember that Captain Standish, in his evidence, explained that those other officers had charge of the Kelly operations and I had still charge of the district?— Yes.
15565 Is that your meaning as to superseding?— I think if the Kellys were at large in your district—
15566 Will you please plainly answer the question?— I think you were virtuality superseded at Benalla by Mr. Nicolson, contrary to the interests of the public.
15567 Would it surprise you to learn that it was with my full consent and desire that other officers should be sent to meet the special occasion of the Kelly outbreak, knowing that it was quite impossible for any one officer to attend to that in addition to the ordinary business—is that new to you?— It would be quite new to me and unlikely, and I would be greatly surprised at it.
15568 Do you think any one officer (you knowing the extent of the district) could undertake the two duties?— I do, because you had two subordinates—Inspector Smith at Wangaratta and Inspector Pewtress at Mansfield —and if they were not fit for the duty they should not have been there.
15569 Do you know that Inspector Pewtress had not been in the bush before?— Yes, but he was virtually superseded by Inspector Twoey—he was under you.
15570 Who was responsible for the position of officers there?— I suppose Captain Standish. I hold the opinion that, according to the regulations, that there is no warrant for any officer being virtually superseded.
15571 But no one officer could undertake both the duties?— What were your duties?
15572 Looking after the ordinary requirements of the police, and the officers senior to me were sent to take charge of the Kelly business solely?— My impression is that the act of sending Mr. Nicolson and Mr. Hare relieved you from the responsible position you held by the regulations; and from the facts, I know you did not confine your operations to controlling the police in the district, because you took part in the Kelly business and were one of the principal persons in the Sebastopol business. I know you were informed by Quinn that the Kellys were at Lloyd 's house, and you took a party there. I do not think it is possible that the duties of a superintendent could be divided in that way.
The witness withdrew. ....
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