Royal Commission report day 36 page 3
The Royal Commission evidence for 6/7/1881
(see also introduction to day 36)
'The Rev. Matthew Gibney giving evidence'
12793 By the Commission— We have it in evidence from Mr. Hare's official report that there was a very large number of prisoners confined at the house when they went to it at the first moment. Bracken, when he came down to tell about the Kellys , told them also that they had a very large number of people in there. He said, “ Mr. Hare , I have just escaped from Jones's hotel, where the Kellys have a large number of prisoners confined.” There is one more question, “What was the condition of the bodies of Dan . Kelly and Hart when you touched them; were they stiff as if they had been any considerable time dead” ?— They were not stiff. I took hold of the hand of the one next me and it seemed limp, but from the pallid appearance and coldness I thought that it could hardly have been immediately before, only a short time dead; they would not have such a settled look upon their countenances if they had not been some considerable time dead.
12794 Was the hand cold?— No, I do not feel able to say cold.
12795 Were the flames broken through?— They were. I could not judge of my own feeling in the matter. It would not be well for me to say I could judge of my own touch, because I was hot and excited. I am told that a few minutes might cause the appearance that I saw. That is, that if those men were in terror for a good while before and lay down, and if they were wounded and lost blood, and so on.
12796 You saw no marks of fresh blood?— No.–(To Mr. Sadleir)–Is there any other question you wish put?
Mr. Sadleir — No. I wish to thank Dean Gibney for the trouble he has taken in coming here.
12797 By the Commission (to the witness) — With reference to seeing Mr. Sadleir at first–what time did you see him?— I saw him to recognize him for the first time when I was going with the woman Kelly in search of him. He was pointed out to me then standing with a party of men on the left-hand side.
12798 That was after the house was set fire to?— It was just as the man came running down. I saw him then again when I was going up to the house, when he called to me to stop in my course; and then I thought I would have gone to speak a word or two to him at that time, only I thought if those men were observing me from within, they would say I was one of the police and was coming with a message from them, and would have been more determined to take me down; that flashed across my mind, and after walking a pace or two towards where Mr. Sadleir was, I stopped, and he then kindly gave me leave to go on. The next time I saw him was above at the house, after I had gone through, and he very kindly indeed, without demur, thanked me for what I had done; for whether those men were burned alive or not, no one would have known if I had not gone in. Then the man Cherry was found; and I moved away from the scene after that, as I have already told you. I met Mr. Sadleir again when I went to attend to Cherry. He wanted to stay me for a moment, and asked me about the condition of the bodies inside; and I said I had to attend to this man, and would explain after. In fact one of my impressions at the moment was that this man was one of the party of the bodies that I met inside, and that he had life in him, and he was taken out, and I said to myself– “Is it possible I did not observe that, because I was certain they were dead?” Again I saw Mr. Sadleir when the whole thing was over, and he took occasion to thank me then again; and I considered he was certainly very complimentary to me. He called me by a name I never got before– “a hero.”
Mr. Sadleir — He knows the views of people in his ministerial capacity–would you ask whether it was an act to be reprobated my giving up the bodies to the friends.
12799 By the Commission (to witness) — That is only a question of opinion. We will ask your opinion whether you consider it was an act to be reprobated giving up the charred remains–the dead bodies–to their own people?— Well, at the time I had not given the matter consideration, but afterwards, if I had been asked at the moment then what I would do, I do not think I would be able to say plainly at to do–to give them up or not; but afterwards I thought it would have been better not to have given them up. It is a very difficult thing for anyone to say.
12800 Your evidence is that you did not reprobate the action, but simply, on after thought, you would not have done it yourself?— Yes; but I might be permitted to say that, in my own action in the matter, perhaps the police may compare not favorably with me. Now I desire to record this, that I would not go up to that house for any earthly consideration. I knew any man going up there those men would have shot him. I went, just simply putting my trust in God, and just to give those men a chance, that they might have a little time to prepare themselves before they died; and I hoped God would protect me, and if not, if I fell, I would do an act pleasing to Him. But if the wealth of Victoria were laid at my feet, for that consideration I could not do it for that; so that I was actuated from a different motive from any other. I do not see how it could have been done otherwise; I certainly would not do it. I am not speaking any boastful language. I simply say what my feelings were, and what the appearances were at the time; so that I was just as little a hero as any man on the ground, and perhaps considerably less.
The witness withdrew.......
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