Royal Commission report day 36 page 2

Story of the KellyGang - the Royal Commission evidence

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(see also introduction to day 36)

'The Rev. Matthew Gibney giving evidence'

12779 This is number six, “In the interval between her arrival (Ned Kelly's sister) and your approach to enter Mrs. Jones's house, did you see me” (Mr. Sadleir)?— Not at the time that I was called out to–that is I did not see to take notice until the time I was called out to by Mr. Sadleir, that I should not approach there without his permission, or some words to that effect.

12780 Question seven, “Please to describe where you went to search for me and say whether this was after Mrs. Skillian's arrival or not”?— That is a question I have already answered.

12781 Question eight, “How long were you detained altogether before your ministrations to Ned Kelly were completed”?— That is answered also.

12782 Question nine, “Was it not possible that while you were so engaged, or even before your arrival on the ground, or after that, the police were acting on definite orders without your knowledge”?— It was quite possible that they might be acting under definite orders. I have not made any remark that I know which would show they were not acting under definite orders. My remark, I think, was to the effect that the only uniformity I observed was in the intermittent firing at the house–that there was uniformity in that. They used to begin at the one end of the cordon and fire all round till they reached the other. But what I generally felt impressed with was (As I might say a post factum witness of the scene) that firing had commenced at the house when I believe it ought not to have done–that is when all the innocent people were there. I maintain that as it was the practice of those men to stick up people wherever they came to it was not a fair thing to fire into the house while the innocent people were there. This is where I think discipline was wanting; and then continuing till the people burst out of the house, and then firing at them as they burst out. I am referring now as a post factum witness–one that came there and heard what had been going on.

12783 Number ten is, “Might not the outlaws have been called on to surrender without your hearing”?— Quite possibly, but in reply to that I might say, that if I understood they were called upon –the idea they were called upon I would look for occasions sufficiently long for them to see that they were not fired on. I would look for periods of time to be given them to come. Of course I cannot say exactly what length of time there would be or what time there was between one volley and the other. I can simply give my impressions in the evidence I give.

12784 Question eleven, “Please to describe the particulars in which you observed the want of generalship, bearing in mind that the outlaws were in impenetrable armour and the difficulty of knowing in what part of the building they were hiding”?— I think I have already answered that question in my general remark upon the way the thing, just as I came there, impressed me, and it was continued while I was on the scene. I looked upon the matter as being one which began in a blunder (I am simply stating my impressions), and that it was continued on until they were with difficulty allowed to go beyond the bounds of the house they were confined to. Some described their condition, lying on the ground Reardon described the condition of the women and children on the ground, and he was there until some one threatened to kill him by firing on him if he stopped; and then there was such an uproar on the part of the people confined in the place, that at length they were allowed to come out and throw themselves on the ground. Now, I could not for the life of me, make out how it was possible that the people would be confined to that house for so many hours, and the police would be there, and that they would not have known the condition of affairs in that house.

12785 By Mr. Sadleir— What do you mean by the “beginning”?— I refer to the volleys that were fired upon that house while the people were confined in it.

12786 Does that include the first attack?— Well, I daresay it will. There were more innocent people in that house than there were guilty–and if the police were to fire indiscriminately on us here what would we say?

12787 By the Commission— When the first attack was made, you understood we have it in evidence, the police did not know that there were people in the house, and the first volley was fired from the house upon the police–you would not have such a strong opinion as to the first attack on the house?— Surely no one could have any misgiving about Mrs. Jones and her family being there.

12788 This was the first five minutes, when Mr. Hare rushed up and the order was given to cease firing and surround the house; you mean after they knew the people were in it?— It was considerably before I came there; but I remarked already that I formed my opinions, as I might call myself, a post factum witness. (JJK)

12789 You simply said there should not be indiscriminate firing upon the house when there were only two outlaws and a lot of innocent people in?— If there was one innocent life to be lost amongst them I would say the guilty ought to be spared for the sake of the innocent.

12790 Do you think there was any chance of the outlaws escaping at all if there had not been a shot fired after you came?— I thought a guard might have been kept round the place, and the outlaws kept there without firing a shot, and in that condition it would have been impossible for them to have escaped.

12791 By Mr. Sadleir— Not even in the darkness of night?— Well it would be hardly my place to say what would be another person's disposition in the matter, but I simply say my own.

12792 Are you making allowance for the darkness that men might crawl through the fence and might be mistaken for one of the guards. If we had let them stay after daylight would there not be the possibility of their escape?— Then there would certainly have been the possibility.....

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