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Story of the KellyGang - the Royal Commission evidence
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== The Royal Commission evidence for 18/5/1881 ==
''''''
=== full text ===
(see also introduction to [[Royal Commission report 18/5/1881|day 22]])
'''SConst [[SConst John Kelly|Kelly]] giving evidence'''
<span id="rc8752">[[#rc8752|8752]]</span> At what period of the fight was it you came to my position and asked me to come with you to place the men?— About ten minutes.
<span id="rc8753">[[#rc8753|8753]]</span> Ten minutes after Mr. Hare left?— About eight or ten minutes, I suppose.
<span id="rc8754">[[#rc8754|8754]]</span> After Mr. Hare left?— Yes, during the time that I went down from the corner, when I saw [[Rawlins|Rawlins]] coming along the railway line, I ran down to meet him at Mr. [[Stanistreet (2)|Stanistreet]]'s house, the station master's house. I saw there was no ammunition, and I told Mr. Stanistreet to leave the house and take off his coat and run up to you.
<span id="rc8755">[[#rc8755|8755]]</span> Did anybody hear you ask me that question?— There was nobody there about except the two black trackers.
<span id="rc8756">[[#rc8756|8756]]</span> You asserted that you asked me that question?— As sure as I am sitting on this chair, I asked that.
<span id="rc8757">[[#rc8757|8757]]</span> ''By the Commission''— You swear that?— I swear that.
<span id="rc8758">[[#rc8758|8758]]</span> You also swear that you saw Mr. Hare going to the station wounded, and that he came back bandaged?— Yes, I do.
<span id="rc8759">[[#rc8759|8759]]</span> ''By Mr. O'Connor''— How many times did you go to the railway station?— During the whole day?
<span id="rc8760">[[#rc8760|8760]]</span> No, during the time up to Mr. Sadleir's arrival?— Once with the rifle, before Mr. [[Sadleir|Sadleir]] arrived.
<span id="rc8761">[[#rc8761|8761]]</span> When was the second time you came to me?— The second time?
<span id="rc8762">[[#rc8762|8762]]</span> Yes?— Only the time I came with Mr. Sadleir I never went near you.
<span id="rc8763">[[#rc8763|8763]]</span> That was the second time?— That was the second time.
<span id="rc8764">[[#rc8764|8764]]</span> You do not remember coming to me and telling me about the Kellys escaping?— I never went near you.
<span id="rc8765">[[#rc8765|8765]]</span> You did not give me that information about the rifle?— I did not; I never spoke to you.
<span id="rc8766">[[#rc8766|8766]]</span> Did you tell any one else that you found the rifle?— Yes, I told Mr. Sadleir.
<span id="rc8767">[[#rc8767|8767]]</span> Did you tell any of the men?— I told several of the men; any of the men that were upon the railway station and the gentlemen of the press.
<span id="rc8768">[[#rc8768|8768]]</span> Then some one else might have told me that you found the rifle?— Yes, some one might have told you.
<span id="rc8769">[[#rc8769|8769]]</span> Then when Mr. Sadleir arrived did you inform him that I refused to assist you?— I did not. I told him where you were.
<span id="rc8770">[[#rc8770|8770]]</span> You did not tell him I refused to assist you?— No, I did not.
<span id="rc8771">[[#rc8771|8771]]</span> What was the first time you saw me after I left my position, left this trench?— I do not remember seeing you till about ten o'clock, I think, after the prisoners coming out.
<span id="rc8772">[[#rc8772|8772]]</span> And not the time they were coming out afterwards; was it with Mr. Sadleir, or how?— I saw you up towards the railway station.
<span id="rc8773">[[#rc8773|8773]]</span> You did not see me with Mr. Sadleir, when the prisoners were coming out?— No. I was close to Mr. Sadleir, always with him; I do not remember seeing you there.
<span id="rc8774">[[#rc8774|8774]]</span> You say that when Mr. Hare called out to me to surround the house I did not do it?— You did not.
<span id="rc8775">[[#rc8775|8775]]</span> What do you mean by “surrounding the house”?— I mean to place men all round the house, not to let one escape.
<span id="rc8776">[[#rc8776|8776]]</span> You looked upon yourself as the officer in charge of the white men and I was in charge of the blacks?— Yes.
<span id="rc8777">[[#rc8777|8777]]</span> And I did not surround the house with my men?— No.
<span id="rc8778">[[#rc8778|8778]]</span> Are not you aware that the black boy “[[Hero|Hero]]” was one of the first out through the wicket gate–sworn to in evidence?— No; I know Barry told me he was a good man.
<span id="rc8779">[[#rc8779|8779]]</span> ''By the Commission''— And did come through?— No, he did not tell me that.
<span id="rc8780">[[#rc8780|8780]]</span> ''By Mr. O'Connor''— Then if it was a fact, and the men were assisting?— They were–what I saw of Hero and this man [[Kirkham|Kirkham]].
<span id="rc8781">[[#rc8781|8781]]</span> They were assisting to do the same work as you were–to keep the outlaws in the house till the daylight?— They were.
<span id="rc8782">[[#rc8782|8782]]</span> Now, although you say you did not consider that I was an officer over you or in the force, do you state that Constable Kirkham was not under me?— Under you?
<span id="rc8783">[[#rc8783|8783]]</span> Yes, under me?— I did not consider he was under you.
<span id="rc8784">[[#rc8784|8784]]</span> You never did?— Never.
<span id="rc8785">[[#rc8785|8785]]</span> You never were aware that he was transferred to me?— No, I never was. I was well aware that he was in charge of the blacks, and any time they were out Kirkham was with them. Whenever I went out with the blacks I was always told never to interfere with them–to leave everything to Kirkham.
<span id="rc8786">[[#rc8786|8786]]</span> Whose orders to you were those?— Through Sergeant [[Whelan|Whelan]].
<span id="rc8787">[[#rc8787|8787]]</span> From whom did they come to him?— Mr. Nicolson.
<span id="rc8788">[[#rc8788|8788]]</span> Mr. Nicolson then would be in a position to say where I got the instructions from?— I do not know anything about that.
<span id="rc8789">[[#rc8789|8789]]</span> Then you consider that Constable Kirkham never had anything to do with my command, and that was the reason why you ordered him to keep such a position?— Yes.
<span id="rc8790">[[#rc8790|8790]]</span> And were very much annoyed, or angry we may call it, when you found he was with me?— I was not; I was angry with him to find that he left his post; it was not on account of his being with you
<span id="rc8791">[[#rc8791|8791]]</span> You were angry, I suppose, because you found he had left his post?— Yes.
<span id="rc8792">[[#rc8792|8792]]</span> He was one of your subordinates, and he disobeyed you?— Yes..
<span id="rc8793">[[#rc8793|8793]]</span> Did you report this to Mr. Sadleir when he arrived?— It was in the presence of Mr. Sadleir I said it. I said, “Kirkham, what brought you here?”
<span id="rc8794">[[#rc8794|8794]]</span> Did Mr. Sadleir then reprimand the man?— I do not know; I went away; Mr. Sadleir told me to go on.
<span id="rc8795">[[#rc8795|8795]]</span> ''By the Commission''— Was it when Mr. Sadleir and you came to the place where Mr. O'Connor was that it first came to your knowledge that Kirkham had left the place where you wished him to be?— That was the first time.
''The witness withdrew.''
''Adjourned till'' ''Eleven o'clock'' ''to‑morrow.''
[[Royal Commission Appendix 20 for 18 May 1881|[See report of Proceedings]] [~[18/5/81 ]|6138]~]
'' ''See next day [[Royal Commission report day 23 page 1|31/5/1991]] ....
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[[Royal Commission report day 22 page 28|previous page]] / [[Royal Commission report day 23 page 1|next page]]
== The Royal Commission evidence for 18/5/1881 ==
''''''
=== full text ===
(see also introduction to [[Royal Commission report 18/5/1881|day 22]])
'''SConst [[SConst John Kelly|Kelly]] giving evidence'''
<span id="rc8752">[[#rc8752|8752]]</span> At what period of the fight was it you came to my position and asked me to come with you to place the men?— About ten minutes.
<span id="rc8753">[[#rc8753|8753]]</span> Ten minutes after Mr. Hare left?— About eight or ten minutes, I suppose.
<span id="rc8754">[[#rc8754|8754]]</span> After Mr. Hare left?— Yes, during the time that I went down from the corner, when I saw [[Rawlins|Rawlins]] coming along the railway line, I ran down to meet him at Mr. [[Stanistreet (2)|Stanistreet]]'s house, the station master's house. I saw there was no ammunition, and I told Mr. Stanistreet to leave the house and take off his coat and run up to you.
<span id="rc8755">[[#rc8755|8755]]</span> Did anybody hear you ask me that question?— There was nobody there about except the two black trackers.
<span id="rc8756">[[#rc8756|8756]]</span> You asserted that you asked me that question?— As sure as I am sitting on this chair, I asked that.
<span id="rc8757">[[#rc8757|8757]]</span> ''By the Commission''— You swear that?— I swear that.
<span id="rc8758">[[#rc8758|8758]]</span> You also swear that you saw Mr. Hare going to the station wounded, and that he came back bandaged?— Yes, I do.
<span id="rc8759">[[#rc8759|8759]]</span> ''By Mr. O'Connor''— How many times did you go to the railway station?— During the whole day?
<span id="rc8760">[[#rc8760|8760]]</span> No, during the time up to Mr. Sadleir's arrival?— Once with the rifle, before Mr. [[Sadleir|Sadleir]] arrived.
<span id="rc8761">[[#rc8761|8761]]</span> When was the second time you came to me?— The second time?
<span id="rc8762">[[#rc8762|8762]]</span> Yes?— Only the time I came with Mr. Sadleir I never went near you.
<span id="rc8763">[[#rc8763|8763]]</span> That was the second time?— That was the second time.
<span id="rc8764">[[#rc8764|8764]]</span> You do not remember coming to me and telling me about the Kellys escaping?— I never went near you.
<span id="rc8765">[[#rc8765|8765]]</span> You did not give me that information about the rifle?— I did not; I never spoke to you.
<span id="rc8766">[[#rc8766|8766]]</span> Did you tell any one else that you found the rifle?— Yes, I told Mr. Sadleir.
<span id="rc8767">[[#rc8767|8767]]</span> Did you tell any of the men?— I told several of the men; any of the men that were upon the railway station and the gentlemen of the press.
<span id="rc8768">[[#rc8768|8768]]</span> Then some one else might have told me that you found the rifle?— Yes, some one might have told you.
<span id="rc8769">[[#rc8769|8769]]</span> Then when Mr. Sadleir arrived did you inform him that I refused to assist you?— I did not. I told him where you were.
<span id="rc8770">[[#rc8770|8770]]</span> You did not tell him I refused to assist you?— No, I did not.
<span id="rc8771">[[#rc8771|8771]]</span> What was the first time you saw me after I left my position, left this trench?— I do not remember seeing you till about ten o'clock, I think, after the prisoners coming out.
<span id="rc8772">[[#rc8772|8772]]</span> And not the time they were coming out afterwards; was it with Mr. Sadleir, or how?— I saw you up towards the railway station.
<span id="rc8773">[[#rc8773|8773]]</span> You did not see me with Mr. Sadleir, when the prisoners were coming out?— No. I was close to Mr. Sadleir, always with him; I do not remember seeing you there.
<span id="rc8774">[[#rc8774|8774]]</span> You say that when Mr. Hare called out to me to surround the house I did not do it?— You did not.
<span id="rc8775">[[#rc8775|8775]]</span> What do you mean by “surrounding the house”?— I mean to place men all round the house, not to let one escape.
<span id="rc8776">[[#rc8776|8776]]</span> You looked upon yourself as the officer in charge of the white men and I was in charge of the blacks?— Yes.
<span id="rc8777">[[#rc8777|8777]]</span> And I did not surround the house with my men?— No.
<span id="rc8778">[[#rc8778|8778]]</span> Are not you aware that the black boy “[[Hero|Hero]]” was one of the first out through the wicket gate–sworn to in evidence?— No; I know Barry told me he was a good man.
<span id="rc8779">[[#rc8779|8779]]</span> ''By the Commission''— And did come through?— No, he did not tell me that.
<span id="rc8780">[[#rc8780|8780]]</span> ''By Mr. O'Connor''— Then if it was a fact, and the men were assisting?— They were–what I saw of Hero and this man [[Kirkham|Kirkham]].
<span id="rc8781">[[#rc8781|8781]]</span> They were assisting to do the same work as you were–to keep the outlaws in the house till the daylight?— They were.
<span id="rc8782">[[#rc8782|8782]]</span> Now, although you say you did not consider that I was an officer over you or in the force, do you state that Constable Kirkham was not under me?— Under you?
<span id="rc8783">[[#rc8783|8783]]</span> Yes, under me?— I did not consider he was under you.
<span id="rc8784">[[#rc8784|8784]]</span> You never did?— Never.
<span id="rc8785">[[#rc8785|8785]]</span> You never were aware that he was transferred to me?— No, I never was. I was well aware that he was in charge of the blacks, and any time they were out Kirkham was with them. Whenever I went out with the blacks I was always told never to interfere with them–to leave everything to Kirkham.
<span id="rc8786">[[#rc8786|8786]]</span> Whose orders to you were those?— Through Sergeant [[Whelan|Whelan]].
<span id="rc8787">[[#rc8787|8787]]</span> From whom did they come to him?— Mr. Nicolson.
<span id="rc8788">[[#rc8788|8788]]</span> Mr. Nicolson then would be in a position to say where I got the instructions from?— I do not know anything about that.
<span id="rc8789">[[#rc8789|8789]]</span> Then you consider that Constable Kirkham never had anything to do with my command, and that was the reason why you ordered him to keep such a position?— Yes.
<span id="rc8790">[[#rc8790|8790]]</span> And were very much annoyed, or angry we may call it, when you found he was with me?— I was not; I was angry with him to find that he left his post; it was not on account of his being with you
<span id="rc8791">[[#rc8791|8791]]</span> You were angry, I suppose, because you found he had left his post?— Yes.
<span id="rc8792">[[#rc8792|8792]]</span> He was one of your subordinates, and he disobeyed you?— Yes..
<span id="rc8793">[[#rc8793|8793]]</span> Did you report this to Mr. Sadleir when he arrived?— It was in the presence of Mr. Sadleir I said it. I said, “Kirkham, what brought you here?”
<span id="rc8794">[[#rc8794|8794]]</span> Did Mr. Sadleir then reprimand the man?— I do not know; I went away; Mr. Sadleir told me to go on.
<span id="rc8795">[[#rc8795|8795]]</span> ''By the Commission''— Was it when Mr. Sadleir and you came to the place where Mr. O'Connor was that it first came to your knowledge that Kirkham had left the place where you wished him to be?— That was the first time.
''The witness withdrew.''
''Adjourned till'' ''Eleven o'clock'' ''to‑morrow.''
[[Royal Commission Appendix 20 for 18 May 1881|[See report of Proceedings]] [~[18/5/81 ]|6138]~]
'' ''See next day [[Royal Commission report day 23 page 1|31/5/1991]] ....
=== Previous page / Next page ===
<br />
{{MicroficheCopy}}<br />
'''The [[Royal Commission report day 21 page 1|previous day]] / [[Royal Commission report day 23 page 1|next day]] . . . Royal Commission [[Royal Commission Index|index]]''' [[RC_index.html|RC_index.html]]
[[Category:Royal Commission]] [[Category:October 1518]] [[Category:Royal Commission]] [[Category:Commisioner Standish]] [[Category:history]]
MediaWiki:Sidebar
{{^|Original page location \documents\RoyalCommission\RC810518_22_29_8752.html}}
