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Story of the KellyGang - the Royal Commission evidence
[[Royal Commission report day 19 page 10|previous page]] / [[Royal Commission report day 19 page 12|next page]]
== The Royal Commission evidence for 13/5/1881 ==
''''''
=== full text ===
(see also introduction to [[Royal Commission report 13/5/1881|day 19]])
'''Sgt [[Whelan|Whelan]]''' '''giving evidence'''
<span id="rc6183">[[#rc6183|6183]]</span> If they had been on the ground, and number of constables round them, and the outlaws in the house, it would have been quite easy for the outlaws to fire?— I think they could; it was near enough for them to hit from the position they were in.
<span id="rc6184">[[#rc6184|6184]]</span> What is your opinion of the two different systems of endeavoring to catch the [[KellyGang|Kellys]]? Do you know the two systems?— Yes; the first system was when Mr. Nicolson came up to take up search parties before we had trackers. We had trackers from [[Coranderrk|Coranderrk]]. He used to go out with parties himself. He went to the Watchbox Creek and [[Fern Hills|Fern Hills]] and down to the [[Murray River at Kellygang|Murray]] , where the outlaws were supposed to be, and where he was very close to them, it was ascertained, near the [[Gustav Baumgarten|Baumgartens]]' place.
<span id="rc6185">[[#rc6185|6185]]</span> Do you know that of your own knowledge?— I heard of it. Mr. [[Hare|Hare]] came then; and I think his system was very good at the time, because there were a great number of men in the district.
<span id="rc6186">[[#rc6186|6186]]</span> Mr. [[Nicolson|Nicolson]] after that adopted a [[Police Tactics|different system]] altogether?— Yes; allow me to give the reason. I think it was a good system at that time, because he harassed the outlaws, and kept them in the back country. Mr. Hare's search parties were out in all directions. He sent a party at night to the [[Strathbogie Ranges|Strathbogie]] Ranges to watch a friend's place where they were supposed to go, and they remained there for a week. They used to send their provisions out at night, and another party was sent out to the Quarry Hills at night, and the outlaws were harassed and kept back. That was necessary at the time, and if it had not been done the public and the press would have been crying down the police, and hinting that the police were afraid to meet them. The only men I heard grumble when a chance came was the men left behind grumbling at not going out. Then they got the [[Jerilderie|Jerilderie]] money, and Mr. Nicolson returned, and at that time I think his was a good system, because he had a great number of spies or agents, and it would prevent the outlaws having the chance of keeping back in the back country, and give a chance of our capturing them on that account. I think both the systems at the different periods were good.
<span id="rc6187">[[#rc6187|6187]]</span> Do you know anything of the time that Inspector [[Brooke Smith|Brook Smith]] was supposed to be on the outlaws—were you at Benalla at that time?— He was not stationed here; he was at [[Wangaratta|Wangaratta]], and used to go out from there.
<span id="rc6188">[[#rc6188|6188]]</span> Did you ever hear the constables complain they were not allowed to follow on the trail of the outlaws?— I heard some underhand talk, but I could not say exactly what it was or who it was. I often have heard the men in the office speaking, and I have been an unwilling listener, and I could not tell who they were.
<span id="rc6189">[[#rc6189|6189]]</span> Was Mr. Smith removed?-—He was removed after Mr. Nicolson came, and then he was changed after Mr. Sadleir came and sent to [[Horsham|Horsham]].
<span id="rc6190">[[#rc6190|6190]]</span> Was not that in consequence of alteration of districts?— Yes, but he remained under Mr. Sadleir for a long time.
<span id="rc6191">[[#rc6191|6191]]</span> With regard to the different systems, in your opinion the systems pursued were the right ones at the time they were pursued?— I think they were.
<span id="rc6192">[[#rc6192|6192]]</span> In fact, if Mr. Nicolson had attempted to pursue his system when he first came up here after the murders of the constables at the Wombat, it would be tantamount to doing nothing, because he would not have had his agents?— Yes, if he had remained in with his men, and even suppose he had his agents working, throuth the press and the public—
<span id="rc6193">[[#rc6193|6193]]</span> I am asking this: Would it be possible to carry out the arrangements Mr. Nicolson did at the end of March—could he have done it at the first?— No.
6194 Would he have had agents at that time?— He could not have got so many.
<span id="rc6195">[[#rc6195|6195]]</span> Then you were asked as to Mr. Hare's system; you say that was to harass the men and keep l them in the back country. Now supposing that Mr. Sadleir had not come down to [[Benalla Police Station|Benalla]]; you stated, I think, that the constable who is in charge, or the sergeant in charge of the district, is by the [[Police Organisation|regulations]] accountable to arrest offenders with warrants against them?— Every man in charge is responsible for the sub-district.
6196 What does that responsibility consist of?— To prevent crime and arrest offenders—to prevent it if possible.
6197 It is to make them amenable to justice?— Yes.
<span id="rc6198">[[#rc6198|6198]]</span> Was Benalla Mr. Sadleir's head-quarters?— Yes. I telegraphed to him, and he arrived here at eleven o'clock , and rode to Mansfield on his horse at once.
6199 He was in charge of the district at the time of the murders?— Yes.
6200 Were you in charge of the district at the time of the first warrant for [[Dan Kelly|Dan Kelly]]?— Yes, sub-district.
<span id="rc6201">[[#rc6201|6201]]</span> Was [[Greta|Greta]] in your sub-district?— No, in the Beechworth district.....
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[[Royal Commission report day 19 page 10|previous page]] / [[Royal Commission report day 19 page 12|next page]]
== The Royal Commission evidence for 13/5/1881 ==
''''''
=== full text ===
(see also introduction to [[Royal Commission report 13/5/1881|day 19]])
'''Sgt [[Whelan|Whelan]]''' '''giving evidence'''
<span id="rc6183">[[#rc6183|6183]]</span> If they had been on the ground, and number of constables round them, and the outlaws in the house, it would have been quite easy for the outlaws to fire?— I think they could; it was near enough for them to hit from the position they were in.
<span id="rc6184">[[#rc6184|6184]]</span> What is your opinion of the two different systems of endeavoring to catch the [[KellyGang|Kellys]]? Do you know the two systems?— Yes; the first system was when Mr. Nicolson came up to take up search parties before we had trackers. We had trackers from [[Coranderrk|Coranderrk]]. He used to go out with parties himself. He went to the Watchbox Creek and [[Fern Hills|Fern Hills]] and down to the [[Murray River at Kellygang|Murray]] , where the outlaws were supposed to be, and where he was very close to them, it was ascertained, near the [[Gustav Baumgarten|Baumgartens]]' place.
<span id="rc6185">[[#rc6185|6185]]</span> Do you know that of your own knowledge?— I heard of it. Mr. [[Hare|Hare]] came then; and I think his system was very good at the time, because there were a great number of men in the district.
<span id="rc6186">[[#rc6186|6186]]</span> Mr. [[Nicolson|Nicolson]] after that adopted a [[Police Tactics|different system]] altogether?— Yes; allow me to give the reason. I think it was a good system at that time, because he harassed the outlaws, and kept them in the back country. Mr. Hare's search parties were out in all directions. He sent a party at night to the [[Strathbogie Ranges|Strathbogie]] Ranges to watch a friend's place where they were supposed to go, and they remained there for a week. They used to send their provisions out at night, and another party was sent out to the Quarry Hills at night, and the outlaws were harassed and kept back. That was necessary at the time, and if it had not been done the public and the press would have been crying down the police, and hinting that the police were afraid to meet them. The only men I heard grumble when a chance came was the men left behind grumbling at not going out. Then they got the [[Jerilderie|Jerilderie]] money, and Mr. Nicolson returned, and at that time I think his was a good system, because he had a great number of spies or agents, and it would prevent the outlaws having the chance of keeping back in the back country, and give a chance of our capturing them on that account. I think both the systems at the different periods were good.
<span id="rc6187">[[#rc6187|6187]]</span> Do you know anything of the time that Inspector [[Brooke Smith|Brook Smith]] was supposed to be on the outlaws—were you at Benalla at that time?— He was not stationed here; he was at [[Wangaratta|Wangaratta]], and used to go out from there.
<span id="rc6188">[[#rc6188|6188]]</span> Did you ever hear the constables complain they were not allowed to follow on the trail of the outlaws?— I heard some underhand talk, but I could not say exactly what it was or who it was. I often have heard the men in the office speaking, and I have been an unwilling listener, and I could not tell who they were.
<span id="rc6189">[[#rc6189|6189]]</span> Was Mr. Smith removed?-—He was removed after Mr. Nicolson came, and then he was changed after Mr. Sadleir came and sent to [[Horsham|Horsham]].
<span id="rc6190">[[#rc6190|6190]]</span> Was not that in consequence of alteration of districts?— Yes, but he remained under Mr. Sadleir for a long time.
<span id="rc6191">[[#rc6191|6191]]</span> With regard to the different systems, in your opinion the systems pursued were the right ones at the time they were pursued?— I think they were.
<span id="rc6192">[[#rc6192|6192]]</span> In fact, if Mr. Nicolson had attempted to pursue his system when he first came up here after the murders of the constables at the Wombat, it would be tantamount to doing nothing, because he would not have had his agents?— Yes, if he had remained in with his men, and even suppose he had his agents working, throuth the press and the public—
<span id="rc6193">[[#rc6193|6193]]</span> I am asking this: Would it be possible to carry out the arrangements Mr. Nicolson did at the end of March—could he have done it at the first?— No.
6194 Would he have had agents at that time?— He could not have got so many.
<span id="rc6195">[[#rc6195|6195]]</span> Then you were asked as to Mr. Hare's system; you say that was to harass the men and keep l them in the back country. Now supposing that Mr. Sadleir had not come down to [[Benalla Police Station|Benalla]]; you stated, I think, that the constable who is in charge, or the sergeant in charge of the district, is by the [[Police Organisation|regulations]] accountable to arrest offenders with warrants against them?— Every man in charge is responsible for the sub-district.
6196 What does that responsibility consist of?— To prevent crime and arrest offenders—to prevent it if possible.
6197 It is to make them amenable to justice?— Yes.
<span id="rc6198">[[#rc6198|6198]]</span> Was Benalla Mr. Sadleir's head-quarters?— Yes. I telegraphed to him, and he arrived here at eleven o'clock , and rode to Mansfield on his horse at once.
6199 He was in charge of the district at the time of the murders?— Yes.
6200 Were you in charge of the district at the time of the first warrant for [[Dan Kelly|Dan Kelly]]?— Yes, sub-district.
<span id="rc6201">[[#rc6201|6201]]</span> Was [[Greta|Greta]] in your sub-district?— No, in the Beechworth district.....
=== Previous page / Next page ===
<br />
{{MicroficheCopy}}<br />
'''The [[Royal Commission report day 18 page 1|previous day]] / [[Royal Commission report day 20 page 1|next day]] . . . Royal Commission [[Royal Commission Index|index]]'''
[[Category:Royal Commission]] [[Category:July 1513]] [[Category:Royal Commission]] [[Category:Commisioner Standish]] [[Category:history]]
MediaWiki:Sidebar
{{^|Original page location \documents\RoyalCommission\RC810513_19_11_6183.html}}
