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Story of the KellyGang - the Royal Commission Report
[[Royal Commission report day 49 page 7|previous page]] / [[Royal Commission report day 49 page 9|next page]]
=== The Royal Commission evidence for 6/9/1881 ===
''''''
=== full text ===
(see introduction to [[Royal Commission report 6/9/1881|day 49]])
'''Sup John [[Sadleir|Sadleir]]''' '''giving evidence'''
<span id="rc16701">[[#rc16701|16701]]</span> He was very definite in his statement—that, when a record was put op the sheet of any constable, it was read out to the constables together next morning?— That, so far as it goes, is quite correct —that is, if the constable is fined or punished in any way, the record is entered against him; he cannot be fined without it; but in all my experience in the city I have no recollection of seeing those ordinary entries that took place in accordance with the regulations, when a man is leaving his district. This entry would not have been made if he had not been leaving the district; it was my duty then to make it.
<span id="rc16702">[[#rc16702|16702]]</span> At that time you were called upon to give them a character either for good or bad, when they were leaving the district?— I was.
<span id="rc16703">[[#rc16703|16703]]</span> Do you think that, as a matter of justice and practice, it would be good that the record in every case of that sort should be made known to the man?— I think it would lead to no end of inconvenience and unpleasantness. I refer here to similar records being made public to the men in the Irish constabulary, where the men felt it such a grievance to have their character and faux pas made known to their comrades that they requested the Royal Commission to alter the plan to the plan adopted in this country.
<span id="rc16704">[[#rc16704|16704]]</span> You think that it would interfere detrimentally to the service?— I think making it public in the we, Mr. [[Winch|Winch]] does — —
<span id="rc16705">[[#rc16705|16705]]</span> That is not the point. Would it be fair to the constable if he was personally made acquainted by the officer making a report unfavorable to him that he had done so, so that he might have an opportunity of appealing to his superiors?— I do not see why he should not be made aware of it under those circumstances. I think every constable and every member of the force ought, if he liked to ask for it, to be allowed to see what is said about him.
<span id="rc16706">[[#rc16706|16706]]</span> Would it not be better to make it the invariable rule in every case where a disparaging record is made about a constable that he should receive a written statement of the nature of that record?— I do not like to put my opinion against the practice of the service.
<span id="rc16707">[[#rc16707|16707]]</span> I am merely alluding in general terms to equity?— It seems, no don’t, a man's right, as I have urged here before the Commission in reference to myself, that I should know all against me; but I do not want to give an opinion as to the practice of the department, for the opinion of the head officer of the department is that if the present practice is departed from there will be no end of trouble.
<span id="rc16708">[[#rc16708|16708]]</span> But without making the record public to any other person but the person interested, would it not be desirable that any constable having a record—either being unusually brave or praised for any conduct whatever—should receive information in writing, or, if there was anything to complain of in his conduct, he should he informed?— Well, I would not make objection to that.
<span id="rc16709">[[#rc16709|16709]]</span> Do you think it would have a good or bad effect?— If I were in his position, I should like very much to see it.
<span id="rc16710">[[#rc16710|16710]]</span> Is it not a proof of the desirability of that being adopted—the conclusions you have arrived at?— Perhaps it is. I only want to avoid giving an opinion as to the action deliberately adopted by the head of this and several other departments.
<span id="rc16711">[[#rc16711|16711]]</span> It will be the duty of this Commission to make certain recommendations, so your opinion will be somewhat valuable on the point?— Well, upon my word, I think it might be tried.
<span id="rc16712">[[#rc16712|16712]]</span> With advantage?— Yes, if it were communicated to the man himself (not without his request), and that his comrades on the station should not be made aware of it.
<span id="rc16713">[[#rc16713|16713]]</span> In that case, would not every constable who had a bad record made appeal to his superior officer?— Then the question arises, has he not the right of appeal.
<span id="rc16714">[[#rc16714|16714]]</span> You think that is the best way to settle it?— I am very dubious about it. I am reluctant to give an opinion about that—it would be an experiment any way. The present practice I believe in, and I have said to men, “If you have any desire to see your record-sheet, I will see it is shown to you, I will get the authority of the Chief Commissioner,” and the men have said, “No, thank you, sir, I do not want to see it,” and I have never been asked for it by any man; and the men who suffer most, the ill-conducted ones, are the ones who, as a rule, know all that is in their sheets, because when they are brought up for punishment it is all read out to them—the entries of the various officers are read out to the man, so, in that case he would know his sheet from beginning to end.
<span id="rc16715">[[#rc16715|16715]]</span> According to your own confession, a record was made by yourself on one constable's sheets that you now see cause to remove?— Yes.....
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[[Royal Commission report day 49 page 7|previous page]] / [[Royal Commission report day 49 page 9|next page]]
=== The Royal Commission evidence for 6/9/1881 ===
''''''
=== full text ===
(see introduction to [[Royal Commission report 6/9/1881|day 49]])
'''Sup John [[Sadleir|Sadleir]]''' '''giving evidence'''
<span id="rc16701">[[#rc16701|16701]]</span> He was very definite in his statement—that, when a record was put op the sheet of any constable, it was read out to the constables together next morning?— That, so far as it goes, is quite correct —that is, if the constable is fined or punished in any way, the record is entered against him; he cannot be fined without it; but in all my experience in the city I have no recollection of seeing those ordinary entries that took place in accordance with the regulations, when a man is leaving his district. This entry would not have been made if he had not been leaving the district; it was my duty then to make it.
<span id="rc16702">[[#rc16702|16702]]</span> At that time you were called upon to give them a character either for good or bad, when they were leaving the district?— I was.
<span id="rc16703">[[#rc16703|16703]]</span> Do you think that, as a matter of justice and practice, it would be good that the record in every case of that sort should be made known to the man?— I think it would lead to no end of inconvenience and unpleasantness. I refer here to similar records being made public to the men in the Irish constabulary, where the men felt it such a grievance to have their character and faux pas made known to their comrades that they requested the Royal Commission to alter the plan to the plan adopted in this country.
<span id="rc16704">[[#rc16704|16704]]</span> You think that it would interfere detrimentally to the service?— I think making it public in the we, Mr. [[Winch|Winch]] does — —
<span id="rc16705">[[#rc16705|16705]]</span> That is not the point. Would it be fair to the constable if he was personally made acquainted by the officer making a report unfavorable to him that he had done so, so that he might have an opportunity of appealing to his superiors?— I do not see why he should not be made aware of it under those circumstances. I think every constable and every member of the force ought, if he liked to ask for it, to be allowed to see what is said about him.
<span id="rc16706">[[#rc16706|16706]]</span> Would it not be better to make it the invariable rule in every case where a disparaging record is made about a constable that he should receive a written statement of the nature of that record?— I do not like to put my opinion against the practice of the service.
<span id="rc16707">[[#rc16707|16707]]</span> I am merely alluding in general terms to equity?— It seems, no don’t, a man's right, as I have urged here before the Commission in reference to myself, that I should know all against me; but I do not want to give an opinion as to the practice of the department, for the opinion of the head officer of the department is that if the present practice is departed from there will be no end of trouble.
<span id="rc16708">[[#rc16708|16708]]</span> But without making the record public to any other person but the person interested, would it not be desirable that any constable having a record—either being unusually brave or praised for any conduct whatever—should receive information in writing, or, if there was anything to complain of in his conduct, he should he informed?— Well, I would not make objection to that.
<span id="rc16709">[[#rc16709|16709]]</span> Do you think it would have a good or bad effect?— If I were in his position, I should like very much to see it.
<span id="rc16710">[[#rc16710|16710]]</span> Is it not a proof of the desirability of that being adopted—the conclusions you have arrived at?— Perhaps it is. I only want to avoid giving an opinion as to the action deliberately adopted by the head of this and several other departments.
<span id="rc16711">[[#rc16711|16711]]</span> It will be the duty of this Commission to make certain recommendations, so your opinion will be somewhat valuable on the point?— Well, upon my word, I think it might be tried.
<span id="rc16712">[[#rc16712|16712]]</span> With advantage?— Yes, if it were communicated to the man himself (not without his request), and that his comrades on the station should not be made aware of it.
<span id="rc16713">[[#rc16713|16713]]</span> In that case, would not every constable who had a bad record made appeal to his superior officer?— Then the question arises, has he not the right of appeal.
<span id="rc16714">[[#rc16714|16714]]</span> You think that is the best way to settle it?— I am very dubious about it. I am reluctant to give an opinion about that—it would be an experiment any way. The present practice I believe in, and I have said to men, “If you have any desire to see your record-sheet, I will see it is shown to you, I will get the authority of the Chief Commissioner,” and the men have said, “No, thank you, sir, I do not want to see it,” and I have never been asked for it by any man; and the men who suffer most, the ill-conducted ones, are the ones who, as a rule, know all that is in their sheets, because when they are brought up for punishment it is all read out to them—the entries of the various officers are read out to the man, so, in that case he would know his sheet from beginning to end.
<span id="rc16715">[[#rc16715|16715]]</span> According to your own confession, a record was made by yourself on one constable's sheets that you now see cause to remove?— Yes.....
=== Previous page / Next page ===
<br />
{{MicroficheCopy}}<br />
'''the [[Royal Commission report day 48 page 1|previous day]] / [[Royal Commission report 7/9/1881|next day]] . . . Royal Commission [[Royal Commission Index|index]]''' [[RC_index.html|RC_index.html]]
[[Category:Royal Commission]] [[Category:January 1906]] [[Category:Royal Commission]] [[Category:Commisioner Standish]] [[Category:history]]
MediaWiki:Sidebar
{{^|Original page location \documents\RoyalCommission\RC810906_49_08_16701.html}}
