Royal Commission report day 27 page 13
The Royal Commission evidence for 8/6/1881
(see also introduction to day 27)
Mr Allen giving evidence
10838 Did you see him when he came out again?— Shortly after he came out at the back.
10839 You did not see whether he came out at the front or back door?— No.
10840 Were the police near the place when he came out?— I think; some were as close as eight or ten yards on the Wangaratta side.
10841 Did he give any information when he came out—did you hear anything?— I think he gave some information to the police, but I was not close enough to hear it. The policemen who occupied positions close to the hotel on the Wangaratta side, behind the trees, challenged Mrs. Skillian, who wanted to enter the hotel, and threatened to fire on her if she did not retreat, and although very close she turned back. One of those men was Constable Armstrong, I think.
10842 Did you see the bodies after they were burned?— Yes.
10843 Before they were disturbed by anybody?— Yes.
10844 Can you say in what part of the house they were?— They were in the back room next the Benalla side.
10845 Were they both there?— Yes, lying close together, with their heads, I thought, to the back of the hotel.
10846 And the armour was lying how?— As if on them.
10847 Was it lying on the ground beside them?— On the heap.
10848 Close to them?— Yes.
10849 They were burned beyond recognition?— Yes, charred up.
10850 If anyone stated here that one was in one back room at the south end of the house and another in the room at the north end, that cannot be true?— No, not so far apart. There might have been a partition between them, but then they would have been close up to the partition on each side, and it was burned away. They were within a few feet of each other. I think it would be a mistake. It was very hot, and there was a great crowd of people about and you could only get cursory glances at the place.
10851 Did you notice particularly whether the men seemed to be under command or any guidance during the day?— After the arrival of Mr. Sadleir they were under good discipline, but earlier in the morning they were not. I thought they were wanting in discipline, in officering during the morning.
10852 That was the time Senior Constable Kelly was in charge?— Yes, during the whole of the morning they seemed to be deficient in some head on whom they could rely. Although Senior Constable Kelly worked very hard and very bravely in the morning in the dark, and without any assistance or any one to consult, the men appeared to want some head.
10853 Would they feel that want if he was the man who was entitled to take charge?— I think they would, not being accustomed to his rule, and not being certain whether he was in command or not.
10854 We have had a great deal of evidence from the force themselves, and they have all declared that they considered from the very first that Senior Constable Kelly was their natural head when Mr. Hare went away, and that they were prepared to obey him?— Yes.
10854a Did they show any want of discipline to your mind in consequence, as you would say, of being under Senior Constable Kelly?— Oh no, I did not think they showed a want of discipline. I think they were wanting in guidance. They were right enough—the men behaved right enough in anything they had to do, but they were rather improperly directed, not correctly directed; they did not appear to me to have sufficient reliance or sufficient satisfaction in their leader, and did not seem to be as well disciplined or satisfied, or work as well, as if they had been under Mr. Hare all the time.
10855 Did you see Mr. O'Connor directing in any way the movements of the force during the day?— No.
10856 Would you give an instance of where you found the police were wanting in officering in the first part before Mr. Sadleir's arrival, and another instance after Mr. Sadleir came to show they were properly officered after his arrival?— In the early morning this instance would give it: The men in the morning did as they pleased, but acted under the general direction of not letting them—the Kellys—escape, and fired indiscriminately, either for amusement or some other motive, or without any apparent object, all through the morning; after Mr. Sadleir's arrival I think the firing was restrained, and I think the men had their allotted positions; and from what I saw of their movements I thought they were acting under some general understanding or general order.
10857 Was Mr. Sadleir on the ground directing their movements after his arrival?— Yes, from the time of his arrival.
10858 Near the scene—the hotel?— Right through. He was a good time in the station with Kelly, trying to elicit some information from him, and to get him to give some signal to the men in the hotel to surrender.....
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